Question by Chix: rehab is for quitters:
DS: Is administering pain for perfection worth a ribbon?
I use prong collars on my dogs to keep them safe. I don’t pretend to be “all positive” and believe there is need at times for compulsion, particularly in breeds such as Doberman and GSD which are prey focused and can also be dog-on-dog aggressive.
So, accepting some people will already think I’m spawn of Satan for advocating a prong collar leash correction – I’m introducing a second “tier” of compulsion: that which is done for sport. To get a trophy – a ribbon.
Is there a difference in people’s minds between using pain to protect a dog from harm (ie from bolting out the door after a rabbit and being hit by a car), or from harming others (ie from retaliation when a little JRT rattles their cage) and using pain simply to have a dog perform a perfectly straight sit…or a tightly wound heel, where the dog becomes wrapped around the handler in an almost impossible angle.
Is pain through an e-collar necessary to “out” a dog that is deployed off lead to bite in Schtzhund or Ring?
Yes, I’m asking – so be honest now. Is a civilian really going to stand there and in the face of danger where bad people threaten their very mortality, and ensure the dog “outs” on command..or (more likely) will you run like hell and in a primal act of self-preservation leave the dog to fight alone…and count on the dog fending off the attacker and then finding you.
I’m asking because so far, I just have not found the need and I cannot rationalize the necessity. I’m excluding police and military persons – lets keep this simple, we are talking about civilians.
All of this is what I call “perfection pain”. Of course, I’m biased. I admit it – I won’t do it, cannot find it in my heart to zap my dog to ensure a perfect heel or yank his leash just to make him sit pretty nor can I justify zapping him to stop barking at a guy who is dressed like the Michelin man simply to demonstrate a dog can “bark and hold” (or in real life…bark and die).
Now my bias is clear – so what is yours?
Is administering pain for perfection worth a ribbon?
Curious.
I knew this was a Pandora’s box. Glad to see it didn’t disappoint 
On a serious note, does anybody really walk like this in real life?
@Greek: Yes, avatar is new, dog is not. Glad to see you joined the party – I appreciate your input.
Re: Pain. I’m admittedly a tad confused, but if e-collar is not painful, what is? Here’s a link to a study. I’ve quoted an excerpt below.
https://www.4pawsu.com/IAABC_Ecollar.pdf
Quote:
High-level electric shock (HLES) causes a neurological response and a perception of pain, and activates muscular and skin-burning sensations even if there is no physically burned flesh and although no physical damage has actually occurred. The study specifically stated that the sensation of burning was perceived even when there was no actual physical injury (Sang et.al., 2003). …
Unquote
And yes, I am absolutely certain a sharp correction on a prong collar administers pain. I know it does. Its the reason (in the words of Indiana Jones) that I “choose wisely”. Of course, by using a prong I acknowledge my dogs are ill tempered rouges who routinely eat small children…but in my defense, it does help keep the cost of groceries down.
@Greek: So, to summarize your post: you use 3 e-collars on a dog to win a ribbon and this is justified because (a) you have no emotional attachment to your dog (b) winning is really the only thing that matters and the dog can take it (c) at least they are not being shot at with bullets. OK then. Thanks for your input.
@Lacey: You provide a balanced, reasoned response which I appreciate and your context on application (of choker corrections) and using PR is well stated. Truthfully, I cannot help but laugh watching that guy walk his dog . I’ve been giggling all morning. But hey, people laugh at me all the time so in the end I guess its a wash.
To be fair: If the dog was motivated using a ball or food or some other method of PR – and people enjoy it – fine. I am not a heckler.
@Lacey: On E-collar: The report is more detailed than what I posted if people want to read it – it covers quite a bit but yes, I agree life is full of shades of grey. I am just trying to provide some fact based research – if people have other scientific reports from accredited institutions, by all means provide them. I couldn’t find any.
Here’s a well written article on Prong collars by Susan Clothier. To read it you have to go to the Flying dog homepage and “agree” to viewing her article. So don’t be discouraged if the link doesn’t take you there.
Once on homepage – click on articles then choose “prong collar”.
http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/53/97/
Here is a quote (And yes, it helps the e-collar argument so Im trying to provide both sides)
:
Breed characteristics play an important role in terms of physical sensitivity. Many breeds were selectively bred to be physically insensitive. Sporting dogs and terriers are notably insensitive, and while this may present a problem for the average owner in training, it is the characteristic that enables these same dogs to perform well at the tasks for which they were bred. A Lab who disliked icy water or rough brush, or a terrier who was easily deterred by his prey’s defensive bites could never do its job. Even breeds whose performance does not require physical insensitivity have their share of individuals who are not sensitive to physical stimuli.
The prong collar, or any other properly applied stimulus, allows the dog a clear choice. All collars work by creating unpleasantness for the dog—the collar tightens, which the dog dislikes, and therefore he is motivated to act in such a fashion that the collar does not tighten. Depending on the dog, unpleasantness (the collar tightening) sufficient to motivate him may be nothing more than the pressure of a flat buckle collar. Just as some people react dramatically when they stub their toe, and others with just a whimper, dogs, too, display a wide range of tolerance to physical stimuli.
************************************************************************************************************
Here’s another competitive dog sport….do you think they used pain to train the dog to perform? Is this sport any less competitive? Any less work? Does it matter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu7R4NtpgyM
If your dog is trained well, there’s absolutley no need for a prong coller.
And it’s so not worth a ribbon.
No, it isn’t.
There are much better ways to get that perfect sit, and if your ring sport dog is so unstable that it needs pain stimulus for an “out” it shouldn’t be doing ring sport in the first place.
I’ve done so many types of training, including Ring Sport and have NEVER had to use pain as a training tool. The methods you describe are outdated.
Military and policing organizations don’t use pain as a training tool any more either, at least not in the US. Pain stimulus doesn’t make for a reliable dog, consistency and repetition do.
I just put up a fence, socialized my dog, and taught him to heel. I didn’t understand most of the rest of this. If this is an AKC thing – I don’t like them anyway because they call my gorgeous, friendly white german shepherd a “genetic abnormality”
no need
Prongs and e-collars do not cause pain, if used correctly they should be used to snap the dog out of a behavior or to achieve a proofed command. They are just a training tool and should only be used as that in any situation. My dogs were trained with a prong and I used them in Shutzhund to achieve the best possible attention of my dogs, nothing wrong with that in my opinion
Bring it on Bunny huggers.
Congratulations. You and too many others are the cause of the bad reputations of certain breeds, including dobermans, german shepards and pit bulls. Dogs have for hundreds of years been man’s best friend and that includes protecting him but it does not mean that they must be trained to be mean, aggressive, etc. That is my bias.
“Is pain through an e-collar necessary to “out” a dog that is deployed off lead to bite in Schtzhund or Ring?”
LOL, first I would have to buy into the thought that an e-collar causes “pain”.
I appreciate your thought provoking questions, but with that comment, it turned this question into a joke for me.
Since I am a fan of e collar training- though never having used it myself, but have watched skilled trainers use it,- I can honestly say I did not see the dogs it was used on experience pain.
I have electric wire on my horse pasture, I have touched it, the horses have touched it, and it sure as heck does not cause pain, it gets your attention.
Sadly I think we are in an age where a dog not getting a cookie is considered “pain”.
I suggest you look at some videos of Bart Bellon, the master E collar trainer, those dogs certainly do not look like they are performing because of “pain”.
ADD: Ahhh, Greek has added his expertise. Thank goodness!
ADD 2-This clip is worth waiting through the commerical- Bart Ballon
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x75tgr_bart-bellon_sport
Welcome back, I missed your interesting questions and almost did not recognize you without your old Avatar!
Now, to get to the point you are trying to make, and I believe I did address that issue with you before…
I have competed for a long time, I have trained dogs to do both sport and real life work, I know the difference and I will tell you how I feel.
If you train your dog PROPERLY from day one, to live in the real world, you will need to use compulsion, and that means pain of some sort.
Why does that have to happen, in a sport environment or the real world? Well, because the dog has a 2.5 oz brain and does not share our communication skills, we cant simply tell it to not run across that 6 lane road, we cant tell it to come every time its called, so, we resort to training methods that are easily understood by all mammals…I call that method Cause=Effect and it has been my cornerstone of ALL training for 32 years.
The dog gets classically conditioned to understand that certain actions bring good things and other bad things, IE, pain.
Is pain ever acceptable as a training tool? ABSOLUTELY! Is it ever acceptable as a method to train a dog for a sport, ABSOLUTELY again!
The dog is learning a discipline that, depending on your sport of choice, can very well be used in real life as well. Personally, I don’t like Sch, its not real enough to use in the real world of every day life, other then the OB part, if you proofed it.
Take a look at NVBK, look at the nerve needed and the control that must be there in order for a dog to trial in that sport. MOST of the skills learned in that arena CAN be used in real life.
Yes, I like to win, yes, I like to have a dog that listens the first time, yes I will use prongs and E collars to achieve my objective and I have done just that for ever now.
I have noticed that you like to talk about REAL life and have spoken of some sort of tactical training you have done in the past with your dogs, something that involved paint ball guns, etc….
Having been at the other end of tactical training, let me assure you that games such as the ones you mentioned before, do not offer the puckering anal cavity effect that having REAL bullets being aimed at you do, trust me.
Practice, unless it includes the very real possibility of death, is just that, practice, a serious game.
The fact that you don’t find it in your heart to use an E collar on your dog speaks about how you view these animals and your emotional attachment that you have with them.
You see them as more then what they really are, dogs, animals that need to learn and be trained.
Maybe because of my intro into the dog world back in Europe and the type of people that trained me, I have never looked at a dog as anything more then an animal.
I will tell you what I do find HUGELY disgusting and I have a real issue with though, using a dog that clearly does not have what it takes for the job you need it to do and forcing that dog through compulsion to do it. There is nothing worse or more vial in my mind when it comes to the dog world, nothing. I have always selected my dogs because of the drives they inherited genetically to be able to serve my needs in any capacity I wanted. I have never and will never subscribe to the belief that a great dog is made or that any dog can do anything you train it to do. Great dogs are born, and they are born to do specific tasks and they have drives in those areas that are over the top and because of those drives and their need to be expressed, they can take the pain of a prong or an E collar or 3.
Hope I helped.
ADD: Let ME summarize…I WOULD use 3 E collars on a dog whose temperament can support their use and who needs them to be brought under control for a specific task.
Correct, I don’t have an emotional attachment to my dogs, I have had hundreds of them come and go and I know that nothing lasts for ever and that attachment to an animal is not healthy.
Bullets have nothing to do with winning a trial, but, I have used my dog as a shield before when bullets did indeed fly.
As far as an E collar causing pain, we can play with semantics all day long here, but, at a low level, an E collar is an annoyance, not pain. At its highest level, and depending on what E collar you like to use, they can cause serious pain. There is NO E collar currently being sold in the USA that is able to hurt a dog to the point of disability, death or permanent injury.
As far as the pain caused, it has been proven, even with your use of a prong, that it conveys the message across rather quick and in leaves no open room for more boo boos.
I have chosen prong collars for both my Manchester Terrier and my Rottweiller mix. I use it because my dogs became territory aggressive after installing an electric invisible fence. I don’t trust the e-collars simply because if my dog is being aggressive already, and I am not right there, the feel of an e- bite to the throat can aggravate the aggression. I will have lost control.
My Manchester loves to learn, and loves rally sport. I chose a well respected trainer to work with and use the collar correctly. If used properly it can enhance your performance. Too often we see people using these utensils out of sheer laziness, or to drag large dogs around.
It seems like it would look silly to have a small dog in a prong, and in the beginning stages of training he did yelp, and put up hissy fits. Now he watches my every move and has so much fun
“bark and die” was my motivation. a few weeks of consistent correction is better than being run over by a car or in a dog fight. Not all of my dogs require such things. Only 2 out of 6. These are all rescues that were difficult to place, and the collars I choose are suited to thier individual needs.
In the perfect world, such systems would only be sold with a trainer attached
Again it’s all in what you want. I use understandable consequences (corrections) in training. My corrections can be anything including, non reward, verbal, or physical. I don’t care if it’s for show or for real life. I’m amazed on how much cross over there is between both types of training. Most good competitive trainers do not use a nasty jerk on the pinch collar to get a tight turn on the right or about turn. In fact, most of the good trainers (these are the OTCh and those that get the high combined scores) use mostly food, toys, and play to get the dog to dig on those turns. Severe corrections equals a loss in attitude which means a potential loss in points. For straight sits, I’ve never seen a good competition trainer severely jerk the dog into a straight sit. Again doing so deceases attitude and drive. I know some people use e-collars to perfect heeling. I never have. I have seen e-collars used on go outs and in some parts of the retrieve. Again used properly they are a good tool.
I’ve seen more “abuse” of training tools by people who train for real life situations. The pet/owner type trainers want a quick fix for a problem. They have no understanding about the training process or how a dog learns. For example they want to put an e-collar on a dog that has never been taught a proper recall. They are wanting to fix a problem instead of just train the dog. Most competition trainers make sure that the dog has a complete understanding of the recall before they ever stim the dog. Most competition trainers also know how to prevent problems in training as fixing problems takes more time and effort. The fix is usually more severe then the prevention.
It I had to “train with pain” I wouldn’t do it. I trained my first dogs in the 70s and 80s. Let me tell you the training was much harsher then, than now. you also saw that carry over in the ring with dogs performing in a “robot” like fashion. Most did not want to be there. Many were scared of making a mistake. Thankfully our training methods have changed.
On a serious note, does anybody really walk like this in real life?
In real life? No. However competition is not real life. I can tell you that you could take this dog out in real life, walk naturally and have to die for heel. Did you see the ball being thrown after the about turn? That’s how the good trainers motivate the dog to dig on those turns. Sure they are useless in real life but it’s the flash that wins the ribbon.
Few trainers use high level electric shock. If they did, they’d have robot working dogs and with little animation. Again this doesn’t win ribbons. I find that researchers use HELS to disprove the effectiveness and the humane use of the e-collar. Using this method just skews the results to support their hypothesis that e collars are evil. I have yet to see any research involved to where an e collar is used properly and not as a canine torture device.
I would not characterize a properly used prong collar or e-collar as “pain”.
Discomfort, maybe, but disobedience should not be comfortable for a dog in any situation.
A dog with the proper temperament to be a PPD dog or a Shutzhund dog would by nature have a high pain threshold. I know that with my own Lab mix I have to use a higher setting on the e-collar simply to keep his attention when he is distracted. A setting that would cause “pain” to a more sensitive dog does not phase him at all….he doesn’t even notice it.
I do not compete with my dogs, and a ribbon would not matter to me, but I also do not look down my nose at people who choose to compete. Just because a situation is not life-threatening, that does not mean it is okay for the dog to disobey.
The “tightly wound heels” I have seen have been cookie driven. I think the whole staring into the handlers eyes look is totally bizarre, and I want my dog to heel with me in his peripheral vision, while watching where he is going.
As far as what a civilian is going to do in a threatening situation, you cannot predict that. I would think that someone who has had some training would be more likely to do the sensible thing.
Personally, I tend to react calmly when there is a real problem, and shake afterwards.
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I’m fine with using prong collars and shock collars to when correcting a dog whose temperament and drives might require it. Dogs need to understand that there are consequences for their actions and a shock from a collar is much more pain free lesson than getting run over by a truck or gored by a deer.
What I do not agree with is the use of pain in negative reinforcement to make dogs do things they don’t want to do, usually because they simply don’t possess the genetic drives to do so. I’m mainly into gun dog breeds and the use of the force fetch method disgusts me. If you want a dog that has the drive to retrieve every time and will reliable do so every time, then first breed for it then shape that natural ability for your advantage. All of my dogs are excellent retrievers, without fail, and were never trained with the force fetch method. Never had to since they were retrieving to hand practically from the day they could walk. All drives are genetic and I’m not wasting any of my time on a dog that simply does not possess the drives necessary to make a good retriever.